Patch 3.1 (and 3.2) PvE Holy Paladin Talents
Now that the 3.1 talents seem to be finalized, I thought I’d go over each talent and figure out what my PvE spec will be for Patch 3.1. Edit: The talents haven’t really changed at all in Patch 3.2.
Holy Talents
The Holy tree is still very straightforward. There are 51 talent points that directly improve your ability to heal. Everything else in the tree are PvP talents. In my opinion, Improved Lay on Hands and Improved Blessing of Wisdom are very important for PvE healing and all the other talents are not. Here is the spec so far:
Where to put the other 20?
Classic Ret Build - 51/0/20
I could certainly keep the exact same build I have now and go exclusively into the Ret tree. This gives me the 8% extra crit, the improved run speed, the cheaper instant casts, an improved might, and a potential dps increase for the raid. All of these are very tempting. Lets look at the alternatives though.
Do I really need to Pursue Justice? - 51/2/18
This build gives up Pursuit of Justice for 2% more healing. Now, you could make a good argument that 15% increased movement speed increases your healing and reduces damage. Plus, its just very convenient. But, if you really want the movement speed increase, you could get Tuskarr’s Vitality for an 8% boost and give up your 0.26% Crit. Either way, 2% healing is a straight boost to healing in every fight, so this build wins out over the classic Ret build. I’ll miss you Pursuit of Justice. =-(
3% Crit or 3% more heals? - 51/5/15
How about going even more into Prot? To analyze this build, we need to figure out what’s better, 3% stronger heals or 3% more crits. Its actually not that hard to theorycraft. Each percentage increase of crit will increase your average healing by half a percent. This is because crit heals add 50% to the heal amount. Think of it this way: if you have 100% crit, its the same as getting 50% increased heals all the time. 3% crit averages out to 1.5% increased heals. In addition, each percentage of crit reduces the mana cost of your heals. If you have 100% crit, your heals will all cost 30% less mana due to Illumination. Doing the math, 3% crit will reduce the average cost of your spells by 0.9%. Lastly, Holy Shock crits proc Infusion of Light, which means you’ll get more instant Flash of Lights or crit-powered Holy Lights. To extend the Holy Light theorycrafting, Holy Lights you cast directly after a Holy Shock will have a 0.6% increased chance to crit if you have Sanctified Seals. Flash of Light will have a 3% increased chance to be instant cast after a Holy Shock. So, in summary:
- Divinity
- 3% increased heals
- More consistent and reliable healing bonus
- Sanctified Seals
- 1.5% increased heals
- 0.9% cheaper heals
- More Infusion of Light procs
- More Tier 8 2-piece Set bonus procs
Personally, I’m going to stick with Sanctified Seals, although Divinity is looking even better after Patch 3.2. The Infusion of Light procs will let you pump out more heals faster and help close some of that 1.5% healing gap. Also, the HoT from the Tier 8 set bonus will proc more often, closing that gap even more. So, it almost gives you the same healing bonus and you also get the slightly cheaper heals. I’ll pass on this build for now.
Update: Aura Mastery can actually be quite useful in PvE in combation with a resistance aura on fights where this is a lot of AoE fire/frost/shadow damage applied at a specific time. Its arguably worth losing 1% extra healing or 1% extra crit or Improved Lay on Hands, etc on fights where that happens, especially in a 25-man raid. Multiple Paladins could coordinate the use of their auras and Aura Mastery.
What about all prot? - 51/20/0
This spec has a few good talents, but overall I don’t think it makes up for everything you’d lose in Ret. It still is a potential spec for fights like Patchwerk and Sartharion with drakes where tanks are taking a ton of damage. Here’s some points to consider.
- At first glance, it seems you get a flat 11% boost to healing instead of an 8% boost to crit. But, the 6% boost you get from Improved Devotion Aura is wasted if there is a Prot Pally or Resto Druid in the raid.
- Divine Sacrifice is nice, but its limited to 165% of your health and its mostly useful when Divine Shield is off cool-down. You also can’t control which sources of damage is absorbed and it only has a 30 yard range, so the tank may be out of range on some fights.
- Divine Guardian is nice, but Sacred Shield can only be applied to the tank. The increased duration is really just a luxury since one Sacred Shield is not hard to keep up. This talent will cause Sacred Shield to absorb about an extra 450 damage every 6 seconds (every 4 seconds with the Tier 8 4-piece bonus). For a tank with 35k health, its probably not too noticeable.
- Toughness, Stoicism and Guardian’s Favor are mostly wasted talent points and only situationally useful.
Summary
If you’re really adventurous, you could go for a crazy hybrid healing spec like 24/4/43 or 28/43/0, but I’m not even going to go there.
So, in summary, my spec of choice in Patch 3.1 (and 3.2) is 51/2/18. Let me know if you’re planning on going with something different!
I think you mean 51/2/18.
Do you have any changes to that spec of choice for levelling? My holy paladin’s only level 66 (hopefully 67 by tonight), and I highly doubt he’ll hit 80 before 3.1 goes live.
Do the ret tree talents make up for the loss of Seals of the Pure for damage output? Levelling I still need to keep damage output up for soloing.
Leveling, of course, is much different than going with a build exclusively for healing. Personally, I would just go down the Holy Tree picking up all the right talents as I level up. That way you really get to learn what all the abilities do as you level. You could pick up more dps talents if you want soloing to be faster, or just go completely Ret or Prot for leveling like most people do.
I leveled as Holy from 70-80 and it really wasn’t too bad. Holy does do a lot more damage now than it did before Patch 3.0, but its still one of the lowest damage specs in the game. It often takes me two Holy Shocks (like 7 or 8 seconds) to kill a solo mob. Killing a group of mobs will go faster though because of Consecration and Retribution Aura. If you want to level faster, just go Prot or Ret. Otherwise, enjoy the ride as Holy and have fun learning all your abilities. =-D
Thanks for the advice.
I definitely want to learn in advance. Especially in groups, I want to learn how to heal properly before I get to 80.
I only switched to Holy at 66 (actually dug the Paladin out of retirement… I used to play Ret back around patch 2.1, and decided to drop it, but i want to heal now and thought it was a good reason to start him up again) so I’m already feeling a little behind the curve having only been Holy for one level so far. I’m loving it, though, even though all I’ve done so far is solo. It might be a little slow, but the ability to take on groups helps as you said.
Most of my current one-on-one fights last 3 Holy Shocks at the moment. That uses a lot of mana though so I often only use one or two and let the fight stretch out so I can go longer between drinks. I’m hoping things speed up once I can advance to Northrend quest greens. I’m not desperate enough for speed to switch back to Ret or go Prot, though. As mentioned, I want to learn my class.
I kinda wonder about that 51/20/0 spec when combined with the 4pc bonus… you are basically talking extra 50k/min of damage the tank wont be taking at the cost of just one GCD just from SS alone (assuming 3000sp, which should be easy to get in ulduar gear).
maybe a dual spec swap between 51/20/0 and 51/0/20 or something similar would be an interesting set up…
I don’t think you’re right splatterguard. With 3000 Spell Power, you’ll absorb 2750 damage per SS. With Divine Guardian it will be 3300 damage, so that’s an increase of 550 absorption. With the bonus, you’ll get that extra 550 every 4 seconds or 15 times per minute. 550*15 = 8250 extra absorption per minute from this talent (not 50k). Not really worth the loss of ret talents. Also, I’m not so sure that 3000 Spell Power will be so easy to get in Ulduar.
Quick correction perhaps, but when you said “The Infusion of Light procs will let you pump out more heals faster and help close some of that 1.5% healing gap.” you might be forgetting that HL loses its speed increase and just gets an improved crit chance. FoL will still be instant, but for me, 51/5/15 seems more viable.
I think you overlooked that if you get the run speed enchant on your boots, you’re dropping 12 more crit rating and hit by dropping the Icewalker enchant. The 12 +hit isn’t too big of a loss, though I have missed some judgements in Naxx with it, so dropping what little hit I do have means a wasted cast, mana and a longer wait for my haste buff from Judgements of the Pure. Also, 12 crit rating may not seem like a lot, but with the constant warnings of Ulduar fights making healers go OOM, and the lack of crit on much of the SP plate gear from Ulduar makes me want to avoid the 5% healing in the prot tree more and more. I’ll keep my crit, my run speed AND my Icewalker enchant thank you very much. Divinity seems like a cheap attempt to have paladins choose between mana regen and bigger FoL, but from what I’ve seen, raiding paladins are sticking with longevity and more HL, not slightly stronger FoL (less regen=less HL casts, and we don’t have much of an option of what to cast in it’s place).
I would only suggest dropping the crit in the ret tree and grabbing all 5 points of Divinity to healadins gearing up with 5 mans/heroics since those fights will require more focus on healing people up from group damage and not longer fights. Once they’re sitting on some good gear longevity fights are more needed (imo anyway).
I plan on going with the exact same set up as your 51/0/20, and would only change it if Imp. Concentration Aura seemed to be needed on some new fights, or I’d go with Divinity if the fights just don’t allow for the HL casts (and they put us back in BC’s FoL spam role).
I agree that you shouldn’t give up Icewalker (I’m not). However, IMO, 2% increased heals improves your healing more than 15% increase run speed.
Also, whether you’re using Flash of Light or not, Infusion of Light procs will increase your healing slightly, as well as your mana efficiency, even with the 3.1 nerf. Its definitely not going to make up for the entire 1.5% loss in healing, but it does help your mana efficiency. The crit becomes more useful once you get the Tier 8 2-piece bonus.
Its interesting that the last two comments recommend opposite builds and both are different than what I recommend. It just goes to show you that all 3 builds are viable. In the end, we’re really only arguing about a tiny percentage change in healing and mana efficiency with each build and it all depends on how you heal and how you play. Ultimately, go with whatever makes the most sense to you.
I’m just adding my “two cents”, but allot of these builds are great for PVE combat, but as a raiding spec, I have always stayed deep in holy, even after 3.1. The build is 63/8/0 … K, b4 all the QQ starts “OMG your giving up crit!” .. I would give those points up in Ret any day to stop a wipe. After Wrath, raids have so much fears/stuns/silences/curses and diseases … as a healer the deep Holy tree is needed to counter these. Only exception is if you never plan to be the MH and only as OH or RH, but as MH, have all the crit you want, but it won’t do much good if you can’t cast or worse, you’re dead.
Build:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=503521523202132531035152115030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=152509030406&version=9742
i have been trying to find someone that could validate my idea and you sir have done it. I cam up with this spec on the ptr but couldnt find any other pally that would agree with me.
i am talking about the 51/2/18 spec btw
A quick correction and an addition: The 51/20 build nets you an extra 11% healing vs 8% crit (imp dev is 6%, not 3). Additionally, you mention it gets wasted if there’s a prot pally, but it also doesn’t stack with a resto druid. Thus, for 5 mans, I’d say 51/20 is vastly superior to anything else; for 10 mans, it’s largely dependent on group comp; and for 25 mans, you’ll probably NEVER get that extra 6%, so ret will come out ahead.
Divine Sacrifice is something I’ve been playing with a lot since 3.1 was released. It NEEDS bubble to be up or you’re going to kill yourself. If there’s no significant raid damage, the ability is a waste, and if there is, you’ll lethal damage seconds after you use it. So consider this a 5 min cooldown. Also, if you’re only concerned about the tank, Hand of Sacrifice is a better pick, so this really only works for heavy aoe damage fights. Are there really enough of them to justify the points?
Thanks Davidz, good points. I’ve updated the article.
I’m sticking with 51/0/20 for now. I’m still running pretty high on overheals so I dont think i’m gonna give up PoJ until I feel a need to (with the understanding that as my guild really gets into Ulduar I may need to shift a couple of points into Divinity).
As for the 51/20/0 spec, I think I’m definitely going to make that my dual spec (we have plenty of pally tanks/dps in my guild). From the little I’ve seen in Ulduar already, and from all I’ve heard, the raid damage is considerable. Situationally, Divine Sacrifice could come in extremely handy in some fights.
I run a very similar setup to the standard 51/0/20. I end up though with a few more points in holy with a final allocation of 53/0/18.
I put 2 points into Blessed Hands for the extra 10% damage absorbtion for HoS. I only put 1 point into ImpLoH only to test out the viability of Aura Mastery, but will probably switch back soon.
Very nice, i did this spec when the patch came out. I was just searching for spec ideas and we have the same one. Nice.
sorry if this a “newb” question. But with the talent “Improved blessing of wisdom”, which of the following are true.
a. Does the percent increase only apply to you when you cast wisdom on youself? and it does not apply to other people / classses you csst wisdom on?
b. The % increase applies to you and all others when YOU cast blessing of wisdom.
c. The % increase applies to you even if another pally cast a normal blessing of wisdom on you, as long as you have the talent.
d. the % increase applies to you, even if you don’t have the talent invested, but another pally who did have the talent cast blessing of wisdom on you.
Thank You
No problem, Sheluvme, these are good questions.
At level 80, the highest rank of Blessing of Wisdom without the talent will give anyone you cast it on an extra 91 Mp5. If you have the talent, it simply improves this number to 109.2 Mp5 on whoever you cast the buff.
So, if you have the talent and you cast Blessing of Wisdom on someone, they will gain an extra 109.2 Mp5 whether they have the talent themselves or not. If another paladin casts Blessing of Wisdom on you and they don’t have the talent, you will only get the normal 91 Mp5 blessing, even if you have the talent. The buff is tied to the person who cast the blessing. To answer your questions:
a. False (it does apply to others)
b. True
c. False (the other paladin has to have the talent if they did the cast)
d. True
Things can get confusing because the UI tooltip on the buff will always say the untalented Mp5 even if it is actually applying the talented buff. This is a UI bug that’s been in the game forever for many buffs (not just wisdom) and they say they can’t fix it anytime in the near future.
I agree with Insanetoons. Many have tried to get me to change my point distribution, until experiencing my abilities. The “fears/stuns/silences/curses and diseases” are much easier to deal with using the point distribution Insanetoons uses. Try it before you bash it. I respec’d 6 times refining my tree. It works beautifully.
I also agree with Insanetoons. You can’t heal if you’re under fear, silence or if you’re stunned. I also have a similar distribution and it does wonder for me. I figured out such a template after many dungeons ( though me experience as a holy paladin is very short ). I’ve always played my paladin with retribution or protection, switched as a heal only 2 weeks ago. I did try the other template with 51 holy / 20 ret, but after a couple of wipes in basic Northrend dungeons, I switched with a similar template as Insanetoons. I don’t wipe often as I did and I don’t think I’ll switch back with the retribution crit %, I rather keep my group alive. ( you don’t always have a shamy with his fear totem with you! )
You highly under rate the 51/20/0 Spec. It has unparalleled raid utility for holy paladins. 51/0/20 might be a good build but the extra crit and extra dps provided is not as useful. With full raid buffs a geared holy paladin running a 51/20/0 spec can sit right next to 40% base crit. Which is more than enough. The Bubble+Divine Sacrafice provides a very useful cooldown for hardmode encounters in Ulduar and Trial of the Grand Crusader.
*edit* as long as you pop Divine Protection+Divine Sacrafice it absorbs 40% of the raids damage for the full duration of Divine Protection
thx for the awesome guide
how is this spec ??
http://wow320.gamestool.net/paladint.php?503501520100130531003000000000000000000000000000000005232250203300300030000000
we dont need to worry about mana prb because of ‘judgements of the wise’.
As long as we have this talent, we can spam HL forever.
I have to say, I haven’t seen that spec before, Ryutoku.
Most of the time in your raid someone else will have the replenishment ability so there’s really no reason for your Holy Paladin to take it. You would be seriously gimping yourself with the wasted talents in Retribution and also the lack of Beacon of Light.
thx for the reply
i saw a healadin who didnt attack bosses in big raid(i mean, melee attack )coz he had to heal OT at the place where was lil bit far from MT.
i think …if he didnt attack, he couldnt get mana from Seal of Wisdom and Judgement of Wisdom ..????? or he didnt need to get mana from those spell ??
(sorry for my bad english lol)
@Ryotoku:
You normally dont need to attack while healing, the mana regeneration and the “get back”-mana from your talents should be enough.
Can I get someones 2 cents on my Current build:
http://wow320.gamestool.net/paladint.php?503501503200130531005152215032000500300000000000000000000000000000000000000000
isn’t +11% improved healing a hell of a lot better than 8% crit, plus this gives you more armor and such.
As I explain in the post, you don’t actually get 11% more healing. 6% of that comes from devotion aura, which is wasted if you have a prot pally or resto druid in the raid. 2% of it you can get along with the 8% crit anyway. So, you really only get 3% more healing with that build. You also lose out on Benediction which saves a lot of mana, and the tiny bit of extra armor is almost worthless for a healer.
The main purpose of a Holy/Prot build is for Divine Sacrifice, which is being changed significantly in Patch 3.3.
I go over it a little more in my latest guide:
http://www.holypaladin.net/index.php/holy-paladin-pve-healing-guide-patch-32
In these discussions there are many hits on 51/20/0 build and the use of judgements for mana regen. I like the 4% gain from using this skill, I also use a frost mage which grants a regen under frost while using the FB spell. Outside of a balanced 5man , I have had no problems regening mana during solo target fights. Should be the same for Pally using FoL and the periodic HL spells.
Of course everyone still breaks out for the Shammy/Druud benny spells.
Pally should also ask for an arcane mage focus as group heals if one is available… this provides an additional 3% for crit. Also a counter argument for a pally droppin a few points out of their crit.
Nobody plays paladin healers as paladins. Everyone plays paladin healers as priests, standing far back from the action, avoiding damage and debuffs. Plate armor makes it possible, and [Seal of Wisdom] makes it desirable, to melee for vast amounts of mana gains. [Unyielding Faith], [Improved Concentration Aura], [Pure of Heart], and [Stoicism], make it possible to perform healing duties in the face of debuffs by reducing the duration of Fear, Disorient, Silence, Interrupt, Curse, Disease, Poison, AND Stun effects by 30%. It is awesome to come out of boss stun or fear before the boss resumes attacking, and having a moment or two to catch up on whatever is the immediate priority. The incredible amount of mana from Seal of Wisdom allows the holy paladin to be generous and even willingly wasteful with Holy Light and Holy Shock. I have amazed my groups many times with my mana longevity on long fights, such as when we 3 manned heroic Cyanigosa (heroic violet hold) when our tank deliberately dc’d. Paladins are reputed to have half the heal aggro of other healers, and i NEVER pull aggro by healing even though I do not benefit from the range modifier, due to being shoulder to shoulder with the tank. So if you have guts and like having 90%+ mana at all times, go 56/8/7 or 56/8/whatever and get in there, melee like the plate wearer you are, splash heals around like water, help your group by doing some dps, raise the excitement factor by 350%, and impress your group by not going oom on the longest, toughest fights.
Each specific spec will vary in effectiveness based on whether you’re raiding or doing 5 mans, and who else is in the raid.
I get the most satisfaction from this build (52/4/15):
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin#i4j484c2rItIO,k86R3O,10505
Its good for raid and 5 mans. It has no conditional talents. They are all useful all of the time. It doesn’t matter who else is in the raid or if you’re doing 5 mans. You can HL spam or FoL spam.
oops didnt click infusion of light twice. thats the 52nd point.
Hiya guys although I do agree with a lot of what is posted I thought I would post my spec as it is a bit different than most here. I have a mana pool of close to 30k (25 man buffed), and SP of over 2700. I rarely (if ever) go oom and I do not generally attack. So look my spec over (if you dare) 54/5/12 and gimmie a shout
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Kargath&cn=B%C3%ABll%C3%AB&gn=Sleep+Walkers
Happy Holidays to you all!
A paladin build in the ret tree is viable for 5-mans or raid encounters that have no mechanics whatsoever. But for fights such as Rotface,Festergut and Putricide… Getting DS/DG and RF in the prot tree is verly appealing. If you pick up improved LOH and Aura Mastery, that is 3 different occasions that you can reduce raid/tank dam significantly and make it easier on the other raid healers. And if you’re doing ICC and are going oom, maybe you should stick to totc25/ badge gear until you can handle it.. 3000sp from uld. gear lol… you’re funny.